"Agreed, let’s not take his word as gospel truth. By that yardstick let’s not take anyone’s words as gospel truth, including yours or mine or that of the Gita, Koran or the Bible. Let this be the starting point for this debate."
Fair enough!
"Again I don’t know what your yardsticks are to determine what constitutes maligning Hinduism. You could perhaps point out for me in your reply the exact specific sentences spoken by Manu that in your opinion constituted maligning of Hinduism. I for one couldn’t see one sentence or one word that spoke ill about Hinduism or its tenets."
After laughing off Rabindra Nath tagore's Dumbledore outfit( as if Manu has never seen the Pope and Padre gowns), he uses the dress itself as an argument to rubbish India's contribution in spirituality.It does not take rocket science to establish how vacuous and ill-intended the argument is. Not to forget that Manu is deceiving his audience by ignoring Voltaire and other philosophers before Tagore who made the same point.
Dishonest and shallow arguments are always suspect and i am well within my rational right to investigate Manu's motives here
Contrary to what Western philosophers attest, Manu pronounces : "Mr. Shankar has emphasized the branding of India as the spiritual home of the world. It is one of the MOST enduring and absurd of MYTHS."
As if that was not enough ..Manu launches a frontal attack on the structure of Hinduism itself : "These exotic gurus emerge because Hinduism is not a structured faith with a central authority or a chain of command. So there is more room for spiritual freelancers.".. again its obvious he's insinuating that organized gangs with a hierarchy and authoritarian head are a better way to run religion than letting it be without a strict structure.
Clearly Manu is batting for Christianity, he wants middle men and agents to God rather than people having the freedom to interact with God directly.That's his view and he is entitled to that BUT NOT use it as public benchmark against Hinduism or any other religion without any rationale.
He takes a dig at the errant hindu gurus "like the man who convinced his female followers that his blessing was bestowed by massaging their breasts." Does his not know the use and abuse of pearly bottom boys by Pastors, and Nun's made to spread the bible across the continents on command of the padres? How good and unbiased an author would you consider me if i use the example of these sex maniac aberrations as an argument against Christianity or the church hierarchy??
I wonder how you missed all this bile and ask me for proofs with a straight face :(
"And if he couldn’t forget the way he was snubbed by Ravi and his gang 9 years ago, surely you and I can forgive him for that."
this one , i concur.Reporters have as much if not more right to get carried away as a guru :) just they must admit that they did that at the cost of the viewership
"Again, unless and until you point out the exact sentences spoken by Manu that you felt were maligning Hinduism I cannot agree or disagree with your statement that Manu has disdain for Hinduism."
responded above.make your mind
"But it’s true that many new converts, not just from Hinduism to other religions, have apathy or disdain even for their old religion. For instance Adam Gadahn was an American Christian convert to Islam and is now spokesperson for the Al Qaeda. Many reasons can contribute to this disdain, for instance even as recently as the 1950’s in my home state of Kerala the task of scavenging night soil was exclusive to the dalit community. Another example was the statute of the Travancore state disallowing lower caste women from wearing upper garments in the presence of the Namboodiri Brahmins. Both situations led to large scale social revolt. To tell you the truth if someone forced my sister to go without an upper garment on the basis of her caste citing religious injunctions from the Manu Smriti or relegating my life to cleaning night soil for similar reasons, then not only would I convert, I’d probably say, to bloody hell with the Manu Smriti. These are but two instances of discrimination sanctioned by religion. "
We have instances of brutality in every religion.Caste bias in India is not a HINDU issue, It's a social malaise that is rampant in every religion in India.Evangelists fool gullible people into believing that a social malaise will vanish just by changing your religion. It cannot. You must be aware that there are separate churches for dalit and brahmin Christians in south. Also, the poor dalit Christians don't even have the right to be buried along with upper caste Christians. This is happening TODAY not in 1950s! A Brahmin Christian does not want to marry his child to a non-brahmin christian. These are the sad realities of the despicable caste system that is religion agnostic in India
"To be fair this is not exclusive to Hinduism alone. Many Muslims have shed Islam as have numerous Christians who have shed Christianity. Refer to this website for ex Christians who have put their religion under the scanner. http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/ ."
I never advocated for Hindus to stick to Hinduism.Everybody must be free to choose his or her religion (or atheism) .What is disheartening though is the methods used by foreign evangelists and Dawah agencies to harvest souls.I am sure Jesus never wanted to liberate a soul through a rice bag, job offer etc. If you see the freelance reports on how these missionaries are gaining converts you would know.
"With whom is it a burning problem?? Is it as burning a problem as unemployment, population, pollution, lack of public healthcare and sanitation, lack of proper infrastructure and last but not the least, corruption?"
Economic development at the cost of internal/external security makes you lose both.
I mentioned one burning problem in the context of the article. India is not a single cell amoeba.Its a huge country with many challenges. This does not mean that we should sweep a problem under the carpet by clouding it with others.
As of today Italy is in a financial mess ..the whole EU is trembling - but that's an economic issue : How wise it would be for me to poke this problem while discussing Christianity ? i know you know the answer so please don't digress.
you and i can discuss this burning problem.Rest assured that 1 billion plus are discussing the other burning problems as well.But it aint wise to mix up issues..right?
"Under a secular democratic constitution every person has the right to propagate their religion and every person has the right to choose for himself or herself the religion or spiritual philosophy that suits them best."
I never objected to conversion , only to UNETHICAL conversion. Duping and gaining converts from the lowest levels of maslow's hierarchy is unethical and a crime in any sensible SECULAR democracy.
As far as secularism is concerned, India is not a secular country.It follows "equal respect for all religions" ..which unfortunately is an alien concept in the Abrahmic Faith. They may at best TOLERATE the other faiths , but they would never RESPECT the other faiths. You would be aware the christian and Islamic literature against Hinduism and it's gods specially prepared to gain converts and unfortunately create a permanent hatred against the parent culture .
This is what i am against.If you want to free my soul..do that in delhi , bangalore, chennai and prove the point.why get inside tribal areas foment naxalaism and secession and make the tribals fight and kill each other ..those very tribals who were living in harmony since time immemorial until your gospel arrived?
it's a matter of introspection ..that we must!
" It is because of secularism that so many Hindus starting from Vivekananda in 1890’s to ISKCON and the more recent new age Gurus like HHSSRS and Jaggi Vasudev have been able to carry their philosophy to the West and propagate it freely. Many such organizations including AOL and Isha foundation even enjoy tax free status in the USA. Millions in western society have embraced these philosophies with no interference from either the state or the church. If it shows the greatness of these philosophies, it also shows the open mindedness of western society to different ways of thought. By that yardstick if we surmise that Indian society is secular then the evangelization by missionaries for fulfilling spiritual needs amongst society cannot be regarded as egregious by any stretch of imagination."
India's secularism is flawed.It's temple money and land is usurped by the government while it turns a blind eye to the financial irregularities and illegalities of missionary funds. Does this look like separation of Temple and State??Does the US have any clause that states that all Church money must be brought under government control? NO! so lets not compare India and US..India's brand of secularism is as flawed as German multiculturalism which the chancellor now realizes was a BIG MISTAKE!
alien cultures living in ghettos and spurring hatred against the native culture is not the idea of secularism at all.Appeasing the minority at the cost of majority is not the idea of secularism at all.Germany has learned it's lesson and i hope India does that ASAP.
as i said , i am not against religious conversion, provided it is ethical. Do you find any Hindu sect hunting for gullible aborigines in Australia or Native Americans to convert them by luring them? NO! The Indian gurus ( i don't consider the NYC bound spiritual stand up comedians as Gurus BTW) address an audience that is educated and can take its own decisions without any force or allurement [ I do concede here that using Hatha Yoga as device to stun the audiences rationality is unethical]
"If you discard secularism, and take away from people the freedom to choose their own way to potential spiritual salvation, because your religious ego is getting hurt, then your angst against the foreign missionaries becomes understandable. "
My angst against foreign missionaries stems not from my aversion to secularism but the very murder of secularism that is happening in my own country by their hands. As a hindu I am silent spectator when the temple money is usurped by the government and a portion of the same is donated to other religions.Temple land is appropriated and doled out to missionaries as the chief minister himself is a devout christian(Andhra Pradesh YSR) . I am also silently watching how secular tax money is used for subsidizing visits to mecca and jerusalem (none for amarnath or kailash mansarovar - hindu pays from his pockets). Now you want me dead as a mark of proving my secularism ..right?
I cannot! as i see these missionaries creating divides between converted and native tribal.I see them fueling naxalism and separatism in north eastern states of India.I see them making refugees out of the native Hindu population in Kerala, tripura and Kashmir. I cannot just gobble this with the flawed definition of secularism that you are offering to me.
"Then your argument essentially becomes, why didn’t these tribals and “north easterners” go in for some form of Hinduism rather than Christianity, as their way to salvation. I’m also curious to know why Hinduism waited for evangelists to reach out to the spiritual and material needs of the tribals and other animists and the NE areas before realizing the “danger” it was in."
Every country and state may have its weak areas .That does not mean that these weaknesses should be opened to exploitation. We don;t need foreign missionaries with suspect funding. We have a thriving Indian Christian community in India , i don't have any objection to them teaching the gospel to the Pagan(happy?) .Today north eastern states and goa are a holy mess where the church and state cannot be separated..they are killing the very idea of secularism and you choose to remain blind. It seems my angst must now be directed against you for feigning ignorance of these facts which even the Indian Christians lament.The Pentecostals have made the life of native Christians hell in the south.
for a rational person it aint difficult to catch these vultures that feed on economic, social and religious fault-lines.Its these vultures i am against. India has been a home and refuge to every religion when they were persecuted elsewhere essentially because of the secularism that is inherent in Hinduism. As a Hindu i believe all paths lead to God i don't have to learn secularism from a evangelist who says that only Jesus is the way or Muhammad is the way.
Abrahmic religions are not secular at all. To them all others are bound to hell and hence must not be mingled with or respected in any way ! The fact that i respect the right of abrahmics to hate me must give you an idea of my secualrism versus theirs.
moot point ..stop beating Hinduism ..as it's the only deterrent which keeps one abrahmic sect from killing another in the name of their true god and true path.
"In response, allow me to get some facts out of the way. Firstly at nearly one billion the population of people professing some or the other form of Hinduism on planet earth has never been larger. This is nearly equal to the Muslim and catholic population on planet earth. In India, Christians account for a measly 25 million. This is almost equal to the size of the Indian migrant population living in non Hindu countries including the Gulf States. So in terms of sheer numbers Christians really constitute the proverbial drop in the ocean of Indian society. So now that I’ve gladdened your heart with some actual figures I can point out that the Kandhamal clashes were not the first between the two communities. Before the Kandhamal riots, an alleged RSS activist, Dara Singh and his supporters, had torched the jeep of the Australian missionary Graham Staines with him and his two sons inside it. This was amongst the first clear indications that certain sections of Oriya society did not take kindly to the missionary activities of Staines and were prepared to drop the customary “eastern serenity” to make their displeasure felt and hence the “inevitability” of what happened."
While what happened to graham staines and his innocent children cannot be condoned in any way,you again ignore the observation of the supreme court on this incident. The supreme court observed that illegal conversion was rampant in that belt and chrsitian converts were being pitted against their own non-converted tribal relatives.A few days before the gory incident, a hundred huts of Hindu tribals were burnt down by the tribal converts. It was a revenge act , heinous of course, but not less heinous than what preceded it.
" In the context of Kandhamal I gather you are referring to the killing of Laxmananda Saraswati by the Maoists as being the trigger for the ensuing violence. The link below shows the RSS version of the violence in the words of Ram Madhav, the RSS spokesman. http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/08guest.htm."
This is old news. read the mahapatra commission report on kadhamal which the government refused to tale in the parliament.It shows how rampant is the malaise of illegal conversion and its resulting impact on peace in that state
in the graham staines case the court made the following observation Q.The Supreme Court said today, "We hope Mahatma Gandhi's vision of religion playing a positive development integrating into a prosperous nation will be realized. There is no justification from interfering in someone's belief through force, conversion or false premise that one religion is better than the other." UnQ
"So as per your justifications “rice Christians” faked their ST status to get government jobs and the political representative sat by doing nothing presumably because he was a converted rice Christian himself. First of all I presume that in your definition rice Christian is one who converts for some material benefit. Again I wish to ask you, how different is this from the Hindu who goes to the temple and offers a coconut or does some puja imploring the deity or some other God to fulfill his material wishes, let’s say success in an election? You have a problem with the former but will be prepared to overlook the latter because it may be more in line with your way of fulfilling desires."
a Hindu does not offer the coconut to a Aston to become Ashwini. that's the fundamental difference. Even Christians pray and beg to their god for forgiveness and material benefits. so point number one is a logical fallacy..lets look at the second one
"Secondly you mention that large scale killing, rioting and arson by the majority against the minority is “inevitable” and permissible in such cases, despite availability of constitutional means to resolve the same and therefore the whole exercise is a justified expression of anger for the majority."
putting words into my mouth? "inevitable" does not mean "just", "right" or "permissible". I said Inevitable in the sense that i believe Hindus are as rational or irrational as the Christians or Muslims.If Muslims can riot (its not their fundamental right ..right?) ..so can Hindus retaliate(not their fundamental right again) ..it's inevitable to stop this mob frenzy unless of-course Indians of all creeds be sensitized to the fact that rule of law is supreme.So the anger is justified, the riot is unjustified but is inevitable till the time people are sensitized.Also, the disproportionate number of victims is clearly because of the statistics you provided.there are less Hindus available to be killed , but more to retaliate :(
"This is exactly the justification given by the VHP/RSS for the Muslim specific state sponsored genocide that happened in Gujarat post-Godhra as in, the Muslims have misbehaved by torching the Sabarmati express, the rage of the majority cannot be suppressed now and must be allowed to be felt; the Muslims need to be punished, so discard all constitutional means of dealing with such violence, and take some direct action yourself to resolve/avenge the issue as in large scale indiscriminate killing of mostly defenseless fellow citizens who happened to have the wrong religion by RSS/VHP standards. Again the word “inevitable”. "
The very fact that you mention "post-godhra" riots is telling. Killing of Hindus must not irritate the Hindus but killing of Muslims by these angry post riot out-of-their mind Hindus must be treated as national shame!!? WOW!
so what do we have from here: Hindus are disposable commodities who should not retaliate against the privileged human beings aka Muslims and Christians. A hindu is expected to grab a popcorn tub and enjoy Hindus being butchered by minorities with a level of rationality that is not to be expected from the minority !
Why dont you get this simple fact dear that hindus in general can be as dumb as christians and muslims. Its just that their numbers are greater and hence whenever a minority attacks them the retaliation brings more victims to the minority community.This does not make rioting by EITHER PARTY right..but the argument of numbers is insane as is the despicable act of taking law into ones own hand.
unfortunately the idea of your kinds is not to investigate godhra (as it involves the killing of inconsequential Hindus), but simply ignore it and have some "POST"-godhra hindus bashing. sorry that doesn't sell
"Contrast this to the response of American society to the 9/11 attacks. If ever a large scale pogrom and state sponsored violence towards a specific community should have happened, it should have happened now. However the “inevitable” as you put it, never came to pass. The lives of and property of Muslims remained safe and sound, no large scale organized rioting against the minority, as in the case of Kandhamal or Gujarat, happened and the American armed forces took the battle to those who really deserved it, and radical Islam is being picked apart by means of debate by American society, debating being a better option that resolving issues out on the street. It’s hardly surprising then that it’s America which is the most favored destination for emigration for migrants the world over."
I agree, we must salute American citizens for that.They do realize the perils of radical Islam but are mature enough to use debate as a medium to expose this menace rather than take the law in their own hands. But please appreciate that American democracy is 200 years old ..Indian democracy is just 63 years old. Not even 80 years ago , if you look at how Americans reacted to apparent aliens(blacks) is well known to the world.Ever heard the song : "Strange Fruit" ?
having said that, remember that the 9/11 attack was a terrorist attack. and not a communal riot. India behaved in a similar mature fashion after the multi-city bomb-blasts and 26/11 attacks.Here again, to your dislike, the "inevitable" alone happened.Indians realized that these are foreign terrorists acting with the support of some local misguided terrorists (oxymoron ..nay!) and hence did not take to the streets.So don't start self-flagellating again. Indians are growing up as much as the others. so chill!
"By posting this argument, are you admitting that Christian missionaries have done yeoman service to further the cause of education and social service in India, and you want to show that Hindu organizations aren’t too far behind or are even ahead??? As long as help is reaching to those who need it, does it really matter? When was a hungry person, or a leper or a destitute a Hindu or a Christian? I really wouldn’t have any problems if after receiving help from a Hindu organization a poor tribal decided to throw in his lot with the Hindus. Point is, this wasn’t even in the article written by Manu and yet curiously you somehow felt it necessary to bring it up."
yeoman service it would have been if they would not have converted these people, taken money from these very poor people to fund, build and maintain pakka churches while themselves living in mud houses.The DAV colleges and saraswati shishu mandirs are open to all communities not like minority institutions which have upto 50% reservation for the ..what you call them... "drops in the ocean".
btw, I brought this point up not against the article but against your comment.
"Actually I did ask myself honestly and the answer that came back was, “in the human mind” the very same mind that invented the computer, the internet, the space rocket and the vaccine for polio. The very same mind that came up with concepts like secularism, democracy, freedom of speech and rationalism also came up with all the philosophies that you have listed out. And while I won’t comment on the greatness of RBT’s “eastern serenity” comment nor on his spirituality, since there isn’t a Nobel Prize for spirituality yet, the acceptance of it by Einstein certainly testifies to his open mindedness,
a) first you steal the IPR of Indian Spiritualism by attributing it to the "human mind" in general
b)the you portray the acceptance of this spirituality as Einstein's benevolence ...Openness !!!!
In one stroke you paint Einstein's "ADORATION" of Indian Spirituality as his ability to "WITHSTAND" Indian spirituality. You are the next Manu Joseph ..the bad news is he doesn't sell !
Nobody can divide you from humanity unless you allow them to.
Arahmic faiths are doing that constantly and the world is a witness to that.A tribal in afganistan or bastar does not have the liberty of debate and rational dialogue like you and me.It's this crop that is harvested by the evangelsists.The facts are staring at our faces..northe east wants to secede from India, Kashmir has driven out hindus and wants islamic sharia , kerala and west bengal are now totally divided between the faithful and the kafir(or Pagan if you will)
There's a us versus them divide programmed in the abrahmic faith system and the hindu caste system...both need to be dealt withif we really want humanity to unite.
"I dont doubt pythagoras hearing of the ability of gangetic mathematicians, being the true learner he is , must have come down all the way to satisfy his thirst for knowledge.
This is fairly commonplace you would agree given the fact that thousands upon thousands of Indian students visit western shores to learn and be trained in scientific techniques. Perhaps the west paying back her debts to the east, someone interested in dividing knowledge on the basis of geographical directions might say ????"
The very fact that you eulogize west and discredit the east in the same breath belies your clarion call of geographical indifference to knowledge.
anyways , let me tell you the real debt the west is paying . The first industrial revolution was funded by the dismantling of Indian (undivided india- dhaka) textile industry and setting up the same in Manchester(now you know why Manchester and liverpool are still fighting ;) ).The colonial loot of India (before the mughal and british invasion india was the third biggest economy of the world and by the time they left we were a famine stricken poor country). This in turn fueled science and tech research.While the west got a jump-start with new found indian wisdom and wealth, India tried to gather itself up from the state it was in in 1947.
The west is not inviting Indians for free.Of course India has to do some catching up on the research front, but it was left behind in the race not because of lack of merit but because of it being forced into backwardness thanks to the west.As far as scientific knowledge is concerned , we owe it more to Israel than anybody else otherwise India and other progressive nations have also contributed their fair share to this growing secular knowledge.
having said that , I respect the great minds irrespective of where they came from but not at the cost of eulogizing the western geniuses and trashing the eastern ones be they secular or religious. Where the credit is due..it's due !
so please ":do the due" ;)
" and as for evangelical bile, Im really past the stage of calling bile evangelical or otherwise. Bile is bile, and I know the bile when I see it and my sadhana is to offer no place for any kind of bile in my mind."
what kind of a saadhak is he who cannot see evangelism as bile itself.Evangelism is all about reminding the other of his alleged inferiority and ones own superiority.This is the very bile that is opposed in the content of this blog where you have to accept a mortal as God or final authority as the commander of your thoughts,actions and deeds...all of this bile can only bind you and never liberate you
anyways ..all the best with your sadhana . so long !
